[GW2] Feminist issues
I would like to try this game. I'm willing to pay for the pre-purchase, even though I know it's a pernicious business move for the consumers, because I'm curious about testing it myself in the beta. What I am not sure about is whether I should. My concern is not about the legitimacy of the business practice, but with some of the game decisions that perpetuate a kind of gaming community which I feel uncomfortable with. It is a question of integrity.
My qualms are about female representation in video games. Guild Wars 2 does nothing to alleviate the problem, it even fosters it. Its female characters are tall, extremely thin and scantily clad, wearing high heels and revealing armour to the battle. Their faces could have been modelled after any doll of our childhood: lifeless, perennially smiling, childish or aloof and seductive. Perhaps there will be alternatives at character creation, but so far I have only seen these impossible figures that appear in every commercial, and in so many games, where we get to embody them and be flawless too.
I have also felt disappointed at Blizzard for their female characters in Diablo III. I was fine about the Wizard, to some extent, because I had grown with the Diablo II Sorceress, and was accustomed to her looks. I didn't perceive her as sexualized or seductive, or ridiculously clothed for the job. The Demon Hunter, however, perpetuates the notion that women would keep wearing high heels and revealing neckline (not in the trailer, but in the art works and early armour of the game) as if it were natural, instead of the handicap it actually is; not to mention in life-or-death situations such as fighting demons. Any real woman would wear what is most comfortable, that is a truism. But why don't developers ever acknowledge the artificiality of high heels, and subsequently of their female constructions?
In Diablo III I solved my qualms by playing a male Demon Hunter. It is not the first time I do so. I was not comfortable with the female Blood Elves in WoW, and thus picked the opposite gender. Besides, the (male) Blood Elves were the first WoW race that were aesthetically pleasing to women. The other male characters are built to accommodate to the idea of heroism and physical prowess, even the traditionally slender and graceful (Night) Elves. It is a fantasy designed for men, and not necessarily related to what women find attractive in men. That is why most of the conversations about superheroes with enormous muscles as sexualized for women are wrong, because their characterization is based on a male aspiration. Needless to say, this aspiration is as artificial as the hypersexualization of women.
I left Age of Conan earlier than most people, and probably because of different reasons. I was not comfortable with my characters. Any female I would create had the biggest bosom I had ever seen, in such slim bodies. That constitution is either very rare or artificial. Then I decided I would have a male healer, as slender and unimpressive as possible, as you would expect a caster to be. No chance. He looked horrendous, and still much bigger than any men I had seen which was not coming out of a gym. Both the female and the male characters were designed for men who ascribed to the superhero/Conan fantasy, in which women are sexualized and men are depicted as powerful beasts. And, despite being half-naked in their barbarian attire, the intent is not for them to appeal to women, but to be a vessel of masculine power. The patriarchy system works in both directions, it supplies unattainable ideals for the men too.
What will I do in Guild Wars 2 to tackle the issue? I might yet again create a male character. I could discard the game completely, but I don't want to deprive myself of an enjoyable experience. I had been playing video games which are disrespectful towards minorities since the dawn of time, and it doesn't look like it's going away. I shall be content with drawing attention to the problem, so that more people will perhaps reclaim an accurate representation of 50% of the population. Speaking of which, Borderlands 2 will again feature three male protagonists and one female. Such an old issue. There is one little test I sometimes put to practice when watching a movie, called The Bechdel Test, which accounts for the number of females that actively participate in a movie, without being related to the male leads. It's surprising, and disheartening, to learn how many movies fail this test, reinforcing the notion that male is the default, and female the Other. I wonder if we could adapt this test somehow to the gaming genre. I know of at least one rule that I would propose: "Do the female characters wear comfortable clothes when required?" Can you think of other rules?
If I had to divorce myself from every cultural activity that conscious or unconsciously misrepresents minorities (although women are not a minority at all, they might still be so in the gaming sphere), I would not participate in any mainstream entertainment. I do not watch TV anymore, do not go to the cinema, do not read best-selling books. I read the canon, and sci-fi with a clear notion that it is also full of ideologies. I am on guard most of the time. I would have my games not misrepresent me, but if I had to adhere to that creed I would not play almost any games. What is one to do?
Edit: I received some info through the comments about the gender structures in the game and I feel that, even though the physical representation of women is way off, I couldn't discard the game completely because of its treatment of gender: 3 out of 5 faction leaders are women, and women are constantly featured in the game as prominent figures in power. That is indeed a step forward. Still, a battle has to be fought regarding the sexualization of our characters. Here's a post by Kadomi which adds more to the issue than I had.
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Charr might be an option as well. Looks like the females wear armor appropriate for their class.
Did you follow the Rift launch a year ago? Female characters are generally well covered. Cloth wearing casters have some more revealing options, but it looks like they have appearance slots to allow for more appropriate customization. However, this started many discussions from the start on about how it just wasn’t “sexy” enough. Which just showed what the industry is up against.
Feliz recently posted..SWTOR and I
I’ve written an overview of the female CC in GW2 a while ago, especially on the humans and Norns (in case you like to have a look: http://raging-monkeys.blogspot.com/2012/02/on-gw2-character-creation-supermodels.html). while I was expecting the humans to look fairly supermodel-ish, I was particularly disappointed about the lack of diversity in the Norn females.
The fact that make-up is not optional for the faces is probably my biggest gripe, along with missing “old” faces or small breasts. I don’t understand the point of customization if the developers do not in fact allow you to customize your characters freely – or make more normal looking or angry/badass characters with crooked noses and asymmetric faces possible. it’s quite clear that ArenaNet has an “aimed for aesthetic” in GW2 and that’s basically idealized people.
There’s a bit of consolation though: there are the individual facial sliders that let you deviate from super attractive (also see links in my post). there are some athletic Norn female body types and they go quite tall which is my reason to go Norn. Arenanet did a great job on the Charr females (as opposed to Worgen in WoW) and I reckon you might also like the Asura if the humans and Sylvari do nothing for you.
as for the bare midriffs – I expect with the cosmetic armor options you’ll be able to wear whatever you like. it’s not ideal, but at least there will be a degree of circumvention, similar to WoW (I would always wear shirts there beneath armor). I definitely hoped for better in GW2 but that’s more or less the extent of you customization options.
…that said, there’s a really HAWT male face looking like Clint Eastwood; so maybe I really should roll a male for a change! ;)
Syl recently posted..GW2 pre-purchase ponderings
I’ve just read your post; I must have had missed it… I agree with you on that regard too. The pretty young faces, the unrealistic body type, those are big issues along with the clothing. Although there is hope, if the sliders allow us to customize our characters out of that system. Regarding the clothes, I was thinking about rolling a Guardian. So far I haven’t seen that many bikini plates as usual, in comparison with the outrageous outfits for the casters.
And… yes, I’m seriously considering rolling a male whatever ;).
I’m a WOMAN. I’m sexy in real life and I like having female characters that feel sexy and are smoking hot. I see nothing wrong with it at all. It’s simply a matter of taste. We are all different. As long as the ability to customize characters to one’s liking exists, it should be fine. There’s actually a good amount of customization available, and if you don’t want to be sexy you can be a Charr or Asura or spend some time adjusting the dials..
Sorry, I just personally don’t like ugliness and I am FEMALE. I like hot guys as well!! What can I say. There is nothing wrong with beauty, just appreciate it. There is nothing evil or offensive about it, for either sex. But if your ideal is something other than beauty, that is fine too!
I don’t find sexiness at all sexist though and I am a woman. So people like you kind of annoy me because I think you give a lot of people and especially men the wrong idea and make them think ALL women feel the way you do. Which is just not true.
You don’t need to feel jealous of models and avatars, or of pretty people. Beauty is lovely but there are more important things in the world so you don’t need to feel so disturbed like you have to live up to something. If you’re not a supermodel in real life, make up for it with intelligence or peace of mind. It simply doesn’t matter.
In the end, who really do we have to impress or please but ourselves anyway? In the end, very little matters. Happiness is truly only dependent on how we relate to ourselves.
I like hot guys, but if a gorgeous man opens his mouth and lacks high intelligence also, he suddenly appears very ugly to me and I lose all interest in him. An average joe can suddenly become insanely hot to me based on other factors. *shrug* I’d imagine the same thing happens for men. Beauty is nice but it’s not everything either. People need to lighten up.
If you want dog ugly female characters though, you should check out Skyrim and try playing an elf. I almost hated the game because of the horrible female characters alone and had to tweak it like crazy to get a decent looking wood elf. xD It works both ways!!!
It’s a matter of taste, has nothing to do with sex or sexism.
And try to remember.. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and everything is relative.
Anyway, I just felt I needed to say something because clearly not all women feel the same way. Everyone is different!
Let’s celebrate our differences and appreciate them because variety is what makes life interesting!
Some of the things you have argued I find offensive, but I’m not going to delve much into them. Women like me giving men the wrong idea about women? Does that mean that you consider your stance better than mine? Do you think that feminists do not like sex? We only strive for a more equal society which values women based on their personalities, not just on their looks. Just consider how much you hear about this or that politicians dressing, that female videoblogger looks, etc. Sexyness has to be an option, not the norm, and such option has to be informed, not followed blindly. If you are fine with being ogled in a bar, power to you! But you have to know what it entails, and agree with that. Having sex is wonderful; enforcing sex on everything we consume is not, much less when women are seen as a commodity (“And these games are filled with young horny men. Who cares???! They have a right to be indulged and enjoy their horniness before they get too old and need viagra. xD” – Why do they have a right to be indulged, when this representation of women is consistently harming them, telling them to adhere to the norm and be beautiful and sexy? Why does have to be their horniness imposed on the whole media of video games? Are there not other ways of enjoying sex than depicting women throughout the media as sex objects?).
I think you’re confusing the idea of sexyness and that of sexualization. Sexualization is about making a character valued because of his or her sex appeal, disregarding any other qualities, it is about objectifying people/characters. My characters are not unsexy, they can very well be sexual and attractive; what I don’t want is my characters to be sexualized, transformed into cyphers with a sexy body. I don’t want to have a silly-clothed female in my gaming experience because it is a way of imposing image over strength, the latter being the value a hero ought to convey. Just look at the controversy in Diablo 3 about the female Demon Hunter – she is criticised or praised based on her looks, which some people find sexy and some find degrading. The male is considered effeminate and thus undervalued. This is what ought to be gone. The Wizard, on the other hand, doesn’t spark this controversy because she conveys a clear message of strength and determination, without being sexualized, and still retaining her beauty. She is gorgeous, but she is not just eye candy.
When did I say I didn’t like beauty? That is preposterous. I do like sexy (who doesn’t?), but my concept of sexyness could be different than yours. For instance, let’s consider the media portrayal of superheroes – some women might find them attractive in their muscled bodies, which is fine, and is actually the standard, how beauty in males is usually rendered. I prefer the slim, not physically imposing and somewhat androgynous men. In this movie, Captain America, I liked better the protagonist when he was a short, normal guy, instead of that super fit macho. My concept of beauty differs from that of other people. The problem is society dictates what kind of beauty has to be celebrated. 90-60-90 bodies for females, superhero bodies for males; such reductions are dangerous because they do not allow other kinds of beauty. I want to have options in my games which stray from this norm, and be ugly by your standards, beautiful by others.
“If you want dog ugly female characters though, you should check out Skyrim and try playing an elf. I almost hated the game because of the horrible female characters alone and had to tweak it like crazy to get a decent looking wood elf.” I thought the female elves were quite quaint, and not ugly at all. Ugly is in the eye of the beholder too. Nevertheless, they were not sexualized, not given a doll face, which actually does not exist in real life except in advertisement. This is not related to sexualization, it is about idealization, with which I am fine as long as it is an option, not the norm, because we inadvertedly try to conform to these ideals when we see them everywhere.
Finally, if I may recommend some readings which might help convey these ideas, I’d point out to Apple Cider’s blog, with her list of feminist readings, and Syl’s essential feminist readings. You’d get a better idea about what the movement is really about, and you’d forget about that prejudice that deems feminists sex-haters, puritans and humorless “bitches”. It is wrong. We fight for equality and conscious choice, for femininity, and for the men alike, which are even from their privileged position are reduced by these stereotypes.
I am a male and I have no problem with how anyone looks in an MMO. I understand your concern with it but I do not agree.
Anyway, my one problem is that you mention Blood Elf Males as being “aesthetically pleasing to women”. So why can’t guild wars 2 female characters be aesthetically pleasing to men?
Feminists fight for equality but you need to understand women like to look at male blood elves and men like to look at scantily-clad, doll faced, skinny human women.
Again, it’s not about being aesthetically pleasing or not, it’s about not over-sexualizing. I haven’t encountered one fictional male yet in the video games industry which was sexualized in the way women are.
Who doesn’t (like sexy)? I don’t, because I’m asexual. I want to make a character that’s aesthetically pleasing to me, and idealized according to my ideal: I want to be strong and tough, and not look silly. In a way, I am a sex-hater: I don’t want to play, ever. But I have no objection to other people making sexy characters. I just want to be able to represent my sexuality in the games I play, the same as D does. Thank you for the blog post. It’s almost my thoughts exactly about Guild Wars 2.
I am sorry for having made an inappropriate generalization about wanting sexyness. Societal values are almost inescapable, and I am as entangled as anybody else in the web of assumptions and prejudices, although I try to be aware of these so I can fight them. I didn’t take into account the number of people who do not need sex or sexyness in their lives. Thanks for pointing it out! :)
” I could discard the game completely, but I don’t want to deprive myself of an enjoyable experience. ”
Interesting perspective. As a guy, I would think you saw this for the way it was: Arenanet, again, depriving female players of an enjoyable experience. Ladies, you have to talk with your wallet. And for impact, you must do it in solidarity. You have to refuse outright to participate in this kind of stuff if it really bothers you, if you really think it unjust. To complain, write a post, and then go out and buy the game …I can’t understand your stance on this.
Change starts with one. One person. This stuff is never going away because women will never stop supporting it. Fact is fact.
Doone recently posted..How Blizzard Should Have Solved Ji the Firepaw
I appreciate the sentiment Doone, but I’m not sure this type of “passive resistance” is the way to go on such matters. what you’re basically saying is that it’s the job of female players to change the gaming industry and making a statement by removing themselves from the equation. I see quite a lot of issues with what you’re saying there.
for one thing, that’s not usually how things work; you don’t change the world in a day and you don’t change it by withdrawal. I rather see more vocal players tackling this issue (as is currently happening on many sites), bringing it up on conventions, rallying the cause online – than walking out with a shaking fist. participation doesn’t mean we are supporting everything. we need to be out there however or it comes down to not existing at all. only ever since the female player base has increased within these genres DESPITE some issues are those issues actually being brought up. think about it. there are tons of male players that would love nothing more than the bitching women disappearing.
also, don’t forget the female player base isn’t a united mass of people. even if it was, it would need the majority of all players male and female to make the type of payer statement you’re talking about. now such solidarity would be awesome, but we know it’s not going to happen.
if I had to dismiss every MMO due to sexist content, I would never get to play any games. I’d also have to leave the planet… ;)
I’m taking some good with some bad whenever I choose to play video games. GW2 has a way to go with its CC, but its actually also shining in some areas – for example the charr females. here, they have avoided every traphole that Blizzard did so willingly plunge into.
I agree with you that change starts with each person, I’m not changing anything by turning my back on things however but by staying and keep pointing out where work still needs to be done. this is where we differ if not in much else. I’m always part of the system, so I choose to fight it from the middle of things.
You know, you’re right. On every point. And I can remodel my stance on your truths.
However, I don’t believe that refusal to give your money to *some* companies is withdrawal from the debate. After all, there are companies out there trying to make the kinds of games that don’t engage in sexism or which empower minorities. Give your money to them. I’m not advocating withdrawal from the discussion at all. Just that, if you find a particular company consistently sticking to offensive messages, give your money to someone else. I really don’t see them changing on their own. They change when the money climate changes. I’m not seeing another way to impress this upon them that it’s in their best interest to dismantle sexism in their games. Help me see.
I would definitely not put money into something that’s repeatedly and consistently just out there to discriminate me. there are companies and games too that give me nothing and that I don’t deem worthwhile myself. however, I don’t think we can say that about MMOs like GW or WoW, even if they got their flaws which are mirrors of a greater social issue. there’s some progress there still and there’s cases when they have backed off or corrected errors. these are slow steps but they exist. it’s my hope that if we show grace and honor these small steps (along with the criticism), we will eventually motivate bigger ones.
buyer power certainly has effects too; in this particular case you need to consider the bigger context. ‘love it or leave it’ is passionate but unlikely to change much. more importantly, the onus of bringing change in this area (which is not restricted to MMOs but a much greater cultural and social matter) should NOT have to lie with those affected. when it comes to sexism, racism, homophobia etc. it’s the developers damn JOB to start taking these important concerns more seriously, no matter how many players take offense or not (also think of the Firepaw questline). it’s not a numbers game and it shouldn’t have to take boycotts. besides, players have a better shot at being heard as paying customers when they’re actually customers.
that doesn’t mean we cannot at the same time also support the kind of companies that empower minorities – no disagreement there. :) and if they ever make AAA+ MMORPGs on top of that, I’ll be the first to buy!
Agree with the sentiment, doubtful on some parts of your argument.
I’ve already commented elsewhere that Guild Wars 2 seems to be trying and I also acknowledge that baby steps are important. So just to clear that up, we’re not at odds about any of that.
I don’t believe the onus is on minorities and oppressed groups. In fact I believe a lot of responsibility has to be taken by those doing the oppression. It’s unfortunate, but we live in an environment where the continued purchase and support of the bad companies is touted as evidence that everyone’s happy. My question to you is how can we show them that many, even half of their playerbase is unhappy? Certainly by calling it where we see it in their games. Yet I see this happen in *all* of their games and the next new game has the very same problem. It’s like 2 steps forward and 2 steps back. So there seems to be limited progress that can be made by continuing to support (purchasing) these games and nitpicking it to death. These companies have shown they forget all those lessons by the time the next game releases. In other words, the small victories won in their first game, those lessons are *not* carried forward. This doesn’t speak to them listening or internalizing the lesson. The effect of this kind of protesting seems minimal at best and ineffective at worst.
Baby steps are important. But they’re only important when those lessons are carried forward into their future projects. What other things that can be done to push along the internalization of these lessons? I admit I don’t know, but the first thought that occurred to me is stop paying for the abuse. Yet I agree that’s not likely to have the desired effect and could even make things worse, set the whole movement backward.
Maybe some polling project expanding on who plays these games, some research on their stances, etc. Something to point to and lobby against specific companies. The whole generalization of sexism (the way companies tend to view it as subjective rather understand 50% of their players are women/minorities) often seems to dull the blade of justice so that those who speak out can’t make great progress in turning things around in the future.
There has to be more which can be done than continuing to buy the game all the while complaining about it, only to have them forget all those things they changed with the next title.
Doone recently posted..How Blizzard Should Have Solved Ji the Firepaw
We ladies have already been out of the video game business for a long time. If we back off now, we’re doing nothing out of what companies seem to expect. Instead, I see now that there’s much more we can do by complaining and drawing attention to the issues.
We would never play any games from the start if we had to adhere to such idea. It is because we started to participate in the video games community that developers began to take into consideration female input. In fact, you need only go back one decade and play any D&D-type RPG, like Arcanum, and create a female character; half of the NPCs would even acknowledge that you are a female, and change the default pronoun when addressing you.
I don’t think I can say it better than Syl herself. I was also unconvinced that I could balance integrity with my desire to play and be part of the community. I just realized that my problems with ArenaNet can be tackled from within. I was also thinking along the line of “if you don’t like it, don’t buy it”. But the problem is I like it, or rather I expect to like it. What I don’t like is the general trend in video games that is the idealization and sexualization of females. On the other hand, GW2 is a MMO, it is the epitome of the community. Women ought to be there, in this kind of games, more than in any other, to add our voice to the community and begin to transform it. If I disappear, nothing will change. If every woman disappears, it would be for the worst, both for the business of ArenaNet (even though I don’t think they would suffer that much), and for the community itself. Although this is a very unlikely scenario.
I defer to you both. Forgive me if anything I said was offensive and definitely I ask forgiveness for my ignorance. It’s slow to cure, but I’m working really hard on it. Thanks for engaging me.
Doone recently posted..Suspension of Disbelief
To be honest I’m not particularly interested in GW2 to begin with, but what I saw of the female characters is the reason that I wouldn’t even want to touch the game with a ten-foot pole. In a way things were easier when I wasn’t aware enough of these things to care, but after being “allowed” to play a more heavy-set and fully armoured lady in other games, there’s just no going back for me.
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I just want to add here that having played a female Trooper and Bounty Hunter with the roundest body type, there is in fact a Norn body type in GW2 character creation that fits this bill (though not human, I acknowledge). It is also not only the charts that have less marked sexual dimorphism between the genders, but also the asura, who share armor set looks across gender lines.
As a player of GW1 I can also testify to the fact that there are a spectrum of armor looks even within the same weight class, such that I could look like a bellydancer wearing my skivvies is I wanted to, but also a scholar with a high collar and gloves, without sacrificing effectiveness.
And I meant charr, not charts, please forgive my phone’s autocorrect.
Randomessa recently posted..…And Then the Sky Fell
One of the weird side effects of the ‘everyone is a doll-faced young adult’ thing with humans in GW2 is that every NPC is therefore young and doll-faced as well (that I’ve seen so far) since the NPCs are made with that same CC.
Not only is it disappointing to not be given the choice of making a grizzled male/female human as a player, but it’s kind of creepy that the entire world is similarly devoid of that type of human NPC.
While I agree that the Guild Wars franchise loves marketing their game with pictures of highly sexualized women in revealing clothing, I wouldn’t go as far as to tar the entire game with a broad brushstroke before looking at what is available in game though. For example, this blog post shows choices of both revealing and concealing armor for both males and females.
http://www.arena.net/blog/designing-humans
It’s a very rare instance indeed where I see males portrayed as sexualized. Too rare to even link you an example, as I’ve think I’ve only really seen one in recent memory. Just one:
http://bit.ly/IcBamS
http://bit.ly/IcBemM
…and even these are suspect in what they aim to do. Otherwise, sexualization of males is pretty unheard of in video games.
Revealing armor on a guy isn’t always done for the same reasons armor is revealing on women.
Doone recently posted..Suspension of Disbelief
What are you talking about? Most the male toons in GW1 are all supermodels too. xD
SO WHAT?! All they need is a little more variety. WoW had the ugly characters anyways.
And these games are filled with young horny men. Who cares???! They have a right to be indulged and enjoy their horniness before they get too old and need viagra. xD
SEX IS NOT EVIL!! This is the bad side of Christianity that makes people all screwed up this way. Revealing armor has the same effect based on the viewer whether it’s on a man or woman. People will read into it whatever they will based on how they feel about the human body in general. Some people will get turned on, some will get offended, and others will think nothing about it at all.
You seem to be talking about something separate. Sexualization is the topic, not sexy. Sex as an act of intercourse between two people is also not what’s being talked about.
Sexualization.
And arguments against sexualization are naturally arguments for variety.
If you’re not sure what the difference is, here’s a link to some knowledge that someone else was kind enough to share with me:
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/the-faqs/faq-roundup/
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Here, a sexualized male:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfkep3lI0Ig
It happens to males too. :-) I don’t understand how a little skin can bother people or they automatically associate it with sex and then automatically associate sex with “bad”. I feel lucky I wasn’t around religion much as a child.
Yeah, from my experience with GW I think most the armor and costumes need to be sexier. lol No I am not a man.
I think the solution is simply to offer a ton of variety in games. Old people, young people, pretty and ugly, all sorts of costumes and everything in between. Problem solved. :-)
Sexiness is not evil though. I am so tired of repressed religious fanatics and feminists thinking that it is. Just go to any chippendales and you will see it works both ways.
One more thing.. So far I thought most the human and norn faces they came up with aren’t even attractive at all. lol I only liked the norn hair styles from what I can tell. And they all have gray/blue eyes? How dull. Will see better in a couple days I guess what I can do with character creation. xD
I am late to the party because I haven’t been catching up with my RSS reader for a while. I am really hoping that with this non-NDA beta event, we’ll hear more voices about this really disconcerting trend that really bothers me in GW2. There’s plenty of video evidence out there about the disparity in professions there. Not only does GW2 have the big boobs, teenage faces issues for human and norn females, there’s also the issue that all caster professions (elementalist, mesmer and necromancer) in their female form on humans and norns are chicks in really short skirts, sometimes with garter belts.
I want to like this game, because I remember the heady days of loving MMOs but I can’t stand playing an overly sexualized female that flashes her panties. I am already giving TERA a pass for the same reason. Why do male humans get the full caster robe deal, and the ladies get a short skirt? That is pandering to the male audience in the extreme.
It’s one of the reasons I didn’t pre-purchase, aside from the fact I hate the whole pre-purchase deal.
Kadomi recently posted..Review: Blood Rites
Right.. Where to start. You should have a look at how women dress in real life when attending things like fantasy fairs. They wear corsets and skirts and try to look like game characters because they too, like it. Guys, including myself, will create something, yes someTHING, it isn’t an actual person, that looks nice, male or female. Because you will have to look at it, potentially for hundreds of hours.
The norn have some redicululous bigboobbody options but there’s one or two with a big but and small chest too…
Something you all seem to ignore is that the idea is that you play a herolike character, someone who slays dragons and quests all day long should be in shape, right? Not that the idea of a fat drunken norn didn’t pass my mind, in fact that would be a great option.
But do you really want to play a character that has lovehandles, cellulite and multiple chins? (I am of course exaggerating, but you know what I mean). I am all for women who… Have something to cuddle with if you will, but that doesn’t mean I want my character to look like that. In wow you could always play a female dwarf if you did.
The human race (however relatable) is just so bloody boring in a game that to also have them look averagely out of shape would just make them obsolete. This has nothing to do with sexualisation.
The warrior classes in GW1 and 2 look fine, they are covered in metal when wearing plate, though sure every now and then there’s armor that makes you look like Xena.
Have your opinions all you want, but really you are the ones being superficial for not being able to look through the prettyness of the characters. When I play God of War I can hardly relate to Kratos looking like a god, being ripped with muscle. I will never look like that, yet it doesn’t matter. I understand the character has to look that way to be a god. Mediocrity has no place.
Elitist physiques have always been part of games, films, …, it will never change, generally speaking, of course there will be exceptions.
A good and interesting read, but I thought the “Guild Wars 2 does nothing to alleviate the [female representation] problem, it even fosters it.” is not very fair to ArenaNet (the company developing the Guild Wars franchise).
Sure there may be some female body and armor options that are a bit too idealized or sexualized. And even as a heterosexual male, I frown upon the extreme miniskirt and guaranteed panty shots of the starter light armor for human and norn females. Would I choose to play a female caster character of those races, I would get me some real clothing at the earliest opportunity. And I think I wouldn’t play a female norn because, as opposed to their male counterparts, they are just an overgrown version of their human counterparts. A design afraid to break away from the idealized female and be original. (On the other hand, I love that the female charr don’t have oversized breasts, or any apparent breasts whatsoever, as opposed to most bestial races in other fantasy gamers)
But ironically, after the recent semi-open beta event there where complaints on the official forums that while players of light armor females had a choice between revealing and modest outfits, all of the medium and heavy armor types (consisting out of 5 out of 8 available character professions) only had armor covering the entire body, meaning people that actually wanted to have sexy outfits had no choice but to clothe modestly. (although personally I found this a refreshing quality of medium and heavy armor in the early game)
Besides that, females are strongly represented in the game world’s social structure. Three out of five(!) of the iconic racial heroes, the faces of the game and its races, are female. And apart for one that is not clothed in much more than a leather apron and a few pieces of armor on the limbs and shoulders:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/5/5a/Eir_03_concept_art.jpg
the other two (again, more than half) of the iconic females are not clothed in any way that can be considered sexualized:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/2/29/Caithe_series_concept_art.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/0/03/Zojja_03_concept_art.png
Besides that there are many females to be seen among merchants, guards, wandering NPCs, etc. (most of the time properly clothed, by the way) The humans are also ruled by Queen Jenna, a powerful mesmer magic user that, despite pressure by her advisers, chooses not to marry herself a consort because she thinks her people currently have far more important issues than her satisfying stereotypes.
And also IRL, even though they’re still significantly outnumbered by the males, ArenaNet has some prominent female employees. Most notably Ree Soesbee, who is in charge of lore and continuity. She is interviewed very regularly, and she’s often interviewed, and one of the most popular and respected developers of the game among the GW2 community. You wouldn’t see a woman as the face of one of the development teams for World of Warcraft, or most other MMORPGs for that matter.
Sure ArenaNet and Guild Wars 2 are not the perfect example of gender equality and fair gender roles in popular media, but you can’t say they are “do[ing] nothing to alleviate the [female representation] problem”. They are at the very least a few good steps ahead of a lot of other big names in the games market.
Thank you for your comment, it is really interesting information that you bring! Yes, perhaps I could tone down that assertion considering those initiatives towards destabilizing the gender structure. I’ll add it as an addendum to the post.
Still, those armour pieces are ridiculous :)
Yes, some of them sure are. ^^; Especially the example armor of the human/norn mesmers in character creation, which is absolutely obnoxious.
Thanks for adding the addendum at the end, I appreciate that. :) But the 3 out of 5 heroes I mentioned are not faction leaders. However, they are arguably the five most iconic characters in the game, considered living legends in-game, and a lot of the story will revolve around them.
Dee from sixdee.net describes them better in the criticism section of her beta experiences article: http://sixdee.net/2012/04/last-portal-to-tyria/
I did some more research on the governmental structure of each of the races, and I found the following:
- Humans, as I mentioned, are rules by a queen and her ministers. Ministers make law proposals, and the queen accepts or rejects them based on her own wisdom.
- Norn (the tall viking-like race) don’t have a government and they bow to no one, although they do show great respect to people known for their heroic deeds. Their only city is under care of a male. He is the closest thing they have to a faction leader.
- Charr (the bestial feline race) have three high legions, each lead by an imperator. One of the three imperators is female (of the Ash Legion), and I read her legion has more female higher-ups. The racial capital city is in Iron Legion territory, and thus governed by their male leader.
- Asura (the magic goblin-like race) are governed by the Arcane Council. I do not know the male/female ratio of the council, but considering largely fair gender ratios in the rest of the game, I assume the ratio is about even. The head of the council is male. Or I assume so, because his name does not sound like the female names of his race.
- Sylvari (the plant race) are a bit more complicated (and a lot more interesting, in my opinion), so I’ll take some more space to explain.
You can say the Sylvari are lead by the Firstborn, the first twelve Sylvari that where born from the Pale Tree. Since their race is only 25 years old, they do not have society-defined gender roles (even in love gender matter about as much as the color of your skin or hair to them, arguably because they don’t reproduce sexually) and there is an even gender split among the nine Firstborn we know of, and also among the four Luminaries (the Firstborn with arguably the highest responsibilities). Note that the Firstborn in charge of their race’s diplomacy, the one in charge of the guards of their city, and the two Firstborn most prominent in the story of the race (including the legendary hero I mentioned earlier and the leader of the Nightmare Court, the enemy Sylvari faction) are all female, while the male Firstborn we know of are scolars most of the time.
It may also be noted the Nigtmare Court is founded by a male who was the first among the Secondborn. So the “dark side” of the race started with a male that is not part of the twelve most prominent Sylvari, and a female Firstborn took over his leadership role once she joined the faction.
So 3 out of 5 of the iconic legendary heroes are female, and if you count the Sylvari, 2 out of 5 of the races have women as their most prominent leaders.
Another of my favorite stories in the lore of the Guild Wars universe is the one of Kalla Scorchrazor, the female Charr that restored gender equality among her race.
In the time of Guild Wars 1 the Flame Legion was the most powerful high legion. (this legion is an enemy faction in Guild Wars 2, as it was in Guild Wars 1) Back when the Flame Legion started to worship beings called Titans as gods, use magic, and attempted to take the dominant position over the other high legions, there was a female Charr that lead a rebellion against the Flame Legion. She failed and was sacrificed to the Flame Legion’s new gods, and then used as an example that women can not be trusted. Women among the Charr where then stripped of their power and freedom, and practically reduced to domestic slaves serving their male “superiors”. But despite this a considerable amount of women continued to practice in secret for many generations.
When the Titans, the “gods” of the Flame Legion, where defeated by the humans in Guild Wars 1, the other high legions started to doubt their authority, which started a decades long rebellion against the powerful Flame Legion by the remaining three high legions. Now Kalla Scorchrazor, daughter of the imperator of the Blood Legion, took a leadership role and rallied up all the female Charr of the Blood, Iron and Ash Legions that had secretly been training all the time. Despite the powerful magic of the Flame Legion, the other three legions, bolstered by the large amount of females now joining the battle, now had the numbers to overpower the Flame Legion, and Kalla herself lead the final battles that finally overturned the Flame Legion. From then on female Charr regained their freedom and the right to fight alongside men as equals.
By the way, this story also explains the atheist mindset and focus on non-magic technology of the Charr, as gods and magic are associated with the Flame Legion. I also just realized that it makes sense lore-wise that females are so prominent in the Ash Legion, which focuses on infiltration and secrecy with spies and assassins, because historically secrecy used to be a big part of being a well-trained Charr woman.
Sorry for the long stories all the time. I can get a bit out of control when it comes to lore in the Guild Wars universe. But I hope you found some of the facts I mentioned to be interesting. :)
As a female player of GW, and soon, GW2 I can say that I always tend to choose a more ‘middle of the road’ character re: looks. I don’t feel the need to impress people with my incredible self-imposed sexiness, in game or out. XD
My GW character is a mesmer, almost ‘Schoolmarmish’ and I wasn’t fond of the character appearance there. While bodies were perhaps idealized – faces were.. well.. meh. In GW2, I will agree to disagree on the ‘idealized attractiveness’ of the faces. During beta, I thought a whole lot of them on the default setting were borderline homely – it took alot of tweaking to come up with something even remotely pleasing to me.
BUT – I personally like to be surrounded by nice looking characters. I hated WoW because of the cartoony, almost caricature looking races, and honestly can say GW appealed to me due to the toons being somewhat more appealing.
I am not threatened by them at all. I think games are entirely for fun, not to be taken seriously, or as a ‘statement’ about society. When you play through GW2 (Beta) I ended up with a GREAT selection of VERY modest clothes that completely covered my Mesmer. I was only in the starter armor for a short time – which didn’t appeal to me personally, more due to the dye schemes than the coverage.
As far as powerful women – I think GW is the lesser of most evils when it comes to games. Jora, Gwen, Kormir… so many wonderful females. I personally can HONESTLY say I have NEVER played a game, or been in an instance where I actually THOUGHT about the male vs. female ratio. I’ve never personally felt unimpowered.
Games generally now put women in powerful positions. Im more ‘offended’ by Princess Toadstools apparent ignorance and stupidity in the Mario series – shes continually captured by the same Turtle-Dragon fella for how many years and games now? What a dipshit. Or Barbie. Lets talk about her ‘costume appropriateness’ for the ages of her audience, and, how accurate the clothing she wears is for her chosen profession. =/ “Yes, ALL nurses and Vet Techs wear pink miniskirts!” The MMO Audience is namely adult. The games are directed towards adults. The clothes they wear – considering the intended audience – are non-offensive in my own humble opinion.
Now Barbie on the other hand… someone needs to have a serious talk with Mattel. That broad needs some tutoring on workplace dress and appropriateness!
“I personally can HONESTLY say I have NEVER played a game, or been in an instance where I actually THOUGHT about the male vs. female ratio. I’ve never personally felt unimpowered.” “I am not threatened by them at all. I think games are entirely for fun, not to be taken seriously, or as a ‘statement’ about society.”
I don’t agree with either of those. We are surrounded by cultural elements, whether we are conscious of them or not. The male vs. female ratio is another of those elements which we usually don’t think about (especially in cinema, where male leads abound, but women watch the movies just the same. Now think about how many men go to see films which have more than 50% women in them. These are usually women-centric in their themes. Or they could be action movies with eye-candy heroines which are not women at all, but characters without personality). You cannot escape the statements that advertisement, cinema, literature, video games make, even though (or particularly because) you are not conscious of them.
When we feminists discuss these issues is because we consider that they affect our perception of society. They won’t affect us so much as they will affect the unconscious citizen which takes everything for granted, or the child who grows in our society and learns to adhere by these statements. Just think about how many women are pressured into looking good, especially young women — They have been taught through all the different media that their appearance is going to be criticised before they even speak, they have been told that fat is despicable, that the body they need is 90-60-90, that women get raped because they were “asking for it”. Our video games do convey values too, we cannot be oblivious of that. If all of our female characters are of an ideal beauty (while the men usually are asked to be strong and imposing), our youngest and/or less conscious will extrapolate it into the real world: women will be taught that ideal beauty is through these models (not allowing for different sizes, attitudes and physical types); and our men will understand that it is ok to treat women like sexual objects. Of course this is a very broad painting that I have done, and it does not come out so bluntly; nevertheless, just think about how the typical male gamer behaves in the internet, about the abundance of porn which objectifies women, about the problems that women may face when playing games (a great blog to learn about such experiences is Apple Cider‘s), etc. Think about how society is, do not take it for granted, and consider how our cultural objects have contributed to it. That is why we complain about games which perpetuate these ideas of male entitlement to the feminine body, the objectification and value of the female as an object to be regarded, etc.
You might disagree, but you cannot disagree with my statement ““I personally can HONESTLY say I have NEVER played a game, or been in an instance where I actually THOUGHT about the male vs. female ratio. I’ve never personally felt unimpowered.” “I am not threatened by them at all.” Because it is fact.
I PERSONALLY have never played and thought about feminism. I have never felt anything but equal to other players. I have never FELT unimpowered.
You can disagree with how YOU feel, but I, as a female gamer, have never observed many of the things you speak of.
Body types are realistic as per the scenario. If you ran EVERYWHERE you went, as much as the characters do, you would also probably have 0% body fat.
The same woman playing a character you deem ‘personality-less’ in a movie is earning 1 Mil + per film. Seems empowered to me.
I can make these statements, because I had this discussion today with other female gamers, and not all of us feel the way you present the situation. I dont feel victimized for being a woman. I don’t feel stereotyped, belittled, objectified, or pressured.
You can be beautiful along WITH smart, empowered, and even imposing. You don’t have to be ‘plain’ or frumpy, or even average – and I don’t think the game had in MY opinion, idealized faces. As I said, I played heck making one appealing even.
I don’t think games, porn or television should take the blame for objectifying women, or even setting the standard of beauty. WOMEN do this ourselves. Fashion magazines are the worst. Men don’t read them, women do.
Men would just as happily view a woman with lovely curves, but place that character in a game, and 90% of women will still choose the THINNER counterparts. Why? Who knows.
As I said, you can FEEL differently, but my statement is true. I PERSONALLY have NEVER felt anything that has made me feel like an object, or made me evaluate the man to woman ratio, or been treated unfairly due to my sex. I cannot imagine Ive been so lucky to just avoid it, but, instead I will suggest some people LOOK for it more.
I had a poor choice of expression back there, I indeed cannot disagree on what you feel or not, I intended to say that it was not my feeling at all, as with many other women around the blogosphere who have been talking about this issue.
You state many things as personal and only related to your experience, and this I cannot argue with because I try to draw the big picture, untarnished by any single experience. That is not an easy task, of course. What I answered in the last reply was along the lines of: “Female-male ratio is important because it depicts how we view or society. How women clothe in games is important because we actually have a culture excessively based on the sexualization and appropriation of the female body.” You personally might not feel threatened or might not think much about it, but nobody is as impregnable as she thinks she is. Probably you and I have internalized ideas which have penetrated us (this verb is especially appropriate since we live in a patriarchal system), ideas like romantic love, how sex ought to work, etc, which we do not normally challenge, “common sense” ideas. All of that is a cultural object. Also the way we view women and men.
“Body types are realistic as per the scenario. If you ran EVERYWHERE you went, as much as the characters do, you would also probably have 0% body fat.” Correct, but you have forgotten about body types which are still fibrous but not 90-60-90; the Norn women with big breasts, when all signs indicate that an athletic build usually comes with small boobs, etc. It is not a factor of realism, hell, our characters are dressing in an outrageously unrealistic manner.
“The same woman playing a character you deem ‘personality-less’ in a movie is earning 1 Mil + per film. Seems empowered to me.” The actress is not the same as the character. One very common misconception of our teenagers is to regard those as equivalent, and fall in love with actors whose personality associate with that of their characters. The actress is playing a part, and that part is what we receive and process. Too many clichéd romantic films and we have our young people understand love as that fairy tale seduction; too many women being seductresses on films, and we visualize women as using their sexual power to their interest (but where are the seductive men? Why are not men accused of seducing women ever? They might do so, but they are not using sex as a means to obtain other goals, the sex is the goal. With women we see it differently. All of this and many other examples are the product of our culture. We cannot simple say that we are not affected by it, because we are swimming in it.
“You can be beautiful along WITH smart, empowered, and even imposing. You don’t have to be ‘plain’ or frumpy, or even average – and I don’t think the game had in MY opinion, idealized faces. As I said, I played heck making one appealing even.” For many women and players, and even the devs, those faces are indeed idealized. Might not be beautiful by your standards, but they are without blemish, mark, wrinkle, and personality. Check the discussion at Live like a Nerd for more on the topic of faces, which I went over without much analysis. Oh, and who said that beautiful cannot go along with smart? I never said so. I do in fact like to create beautiful characters who have unique traits, and a physiognomy which expresses some feeling. My WoW Blood Elf might have been too skinny for my tastes, but she had an angular, stark face with red lips and a half-frown always tinging her expression. Not this beaming half-smile of all of the GW2 doll-faces.
“I don’t think games, porn or television should take the blame for objectifying women, or even setting the standard of beauty. WOMEN do this ourselves. Fashion magazines are the worst. Men don’t read them, women do.” We are what we eat, goes the expression. We are also what we have been brought up in. I don’t like blaming people who are not aware of what they do, because they are following society’s dictates. Games, porn and television are created by people, men and women, and to this people we can appeal. This people have internalized society’s teachings and regurgitated them onto the next one, consciously or not. Please, if you have the time, could you check this video: Killing us Softly 4. It’s the trailer of a speech given on the topic of advertisement and how it affects us women. It’s very short and it will be worthwhile, I promise.
“Men would just as happily view a woman with lovely curves, but place that character in a game, and 90% of women will still choose the THINNER counterparts. Why? Who knows.” Because of the same reason why we try to conform to the beauty standards created by our culture. We feminists usually advocate for a more inclusive conception of beauty which doesn’t discriminate anybody based on her body type and other traits. Our current idea of beauty is absolutely idealized, to the point that artificial make-up (Photoshop) has to be brought into action. It’s all on the video I’ve linked. If you find it interesting, the whole conversation is available on youtube too.
In all honesty, and to keep it sweet & simple.
There’s a lot less to this than what you’re all making it to be, you either like the style of the game or you don’t.
http://cdn.dualshockers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Guild_Wars_2_Boxers.jpg
The males in the game are definitely not what I’d consider ‘natural’ either.
http://www.arena.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/MF_Lineup_Heavy.jpg
The creator’s balanced, you can make them to your standards and you don’t have to have them ‘skinny’ there’s certainly average options with smaller breasts – and they don’t have to be in revealing outfits for that matter.
They have some beautiful clothing, I’m just not sure what the big deal is here.
http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/article/111/1119689/guild-wars-2-20100910010430095.jpg
http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/article/111/1119689/guild-wars-2-20100910010431673.jpg
The characters in the past two screenshots are very natural and equal if that’s what you wanted.
The game you should worry about is Blade & Soul haha
The males are sexualized, too, with bodies full of rippling muscles and big, manly looking armor full of manly looking spikes. Their models are every bit as stylized and unrealistic, just toward the masculine side.
It’s called fantasy for a reason. Both genders are reduced to fantasy ideals, by and large. Your issue appears to be that what the broad swath of people fantasize about do not conform with your political views. But games are a business, and game companies are in the business of giving people what they want.
What 95% of people of both genders want to see is fantasy versions of the particular gender they fantasize about. Adding a bunch of old wrinkly people, fat beer-bellied slob men, and chubby women will do precisely zero to change this, and if you forced it on every single media outlet in the entire world it wouldn’t change it in the slightest.
Hello,
These posts are very old and I just started playing so I didn’t participate in the early game. I certainly won’t have the same experience as you.
When I started the game and had a look at the female humans, the diversity was quite big. Adjusting the body height or physical appearance has a large range, from slender to muscular to outright heavy.
Also there are some faces which to start with are not very beautiful, but the sliders allow you to make a very ugly character or a very beautiful one.
And if you look at male characters, the same goes there too. You do have plenty possibilities to make an out of the world super sexy male super model. I yet have to hear anyone complain about that.
But maybe the post is outdated and you didn’t have the slider option when you posted or weren’t familiar with the many options and drastical changes that one can apply.
Best wishes